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in reply to Xerz~! :blobcathearttrans:

in more IBM stuffs, til OS/2 for PowerPC (remember the RS/6000 ended up adopting it alongside CHRP) actually used a microkernel as well… interesting to see how it essentially was used as a hypervisor, not too differently from Mac OS’ nanokernel or Windows/386’s VxD/VMM https://archive.org/details/Sg244630
in reply to Xerz~! :blobcathearttrans:

I can’t believe this ad? internal video? actually explicitly mentions both OS/2 as an eventual successor and 8086 virtual machines

it also is #cringe

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=noEHHB6rnMI
This entry was edited (1 year ago)
in reply to Xerz~! :blobcathearttrans:

wait what https://hackaday.com/2019/06/20/the-os-2-operating-system-didnt-die-it-went-underground/
in reply to Xerz~! :blobcathearttrans:

There were three so-called personalities: stuff for the microkernel was “personality neutral”, whereas the OS/2 personality acted as the “dominant” one… and the “MVM personality” was also added to emulate x86 computers with MS-DOS and Windows.

It actually seemingly worked pretty well according to that article, but it was underwhelming compared to the initial promise of PowerPC computers that did it all, including superflexible, document-oriented OOP with Taligent (which TalOS… also had the exact same goals as Workplace OS???)
in reply to Xerz~! :blobcathearttrans:

It’s cool to see Workplace OS survived, but everyone praised Taligent before that and the public has only seen like 4 screenshots so far

In mid-1991, Apple CEO John Sculley bragged that Apple had written 1.5 million lines of code for Pink.“ I mean WHAT

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taligent#Pink_system

(which further makes the duplicity between it and Workplace OS absurd)
in reply to Xerz~! :blobcathearttrans:

Ultimately it’s funny, because the more I learn about Taligent (and Workplace OS perhaps), the more it looks like my ideal OS concept.

Definitely not the same however.
in reply to Xerz~! :blobcathearttrans:

anyway, this is the legacy of the IBM RT PC(‘s successor) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XzhCGSE7KKw
in reply to Xerz~! :blobcathearttrans:

…who would ever willingly choose to go around and look up old GLUT code to fix the IBM implementation of OpenGL…
in reply to Xerz~! :blobcathearttrans:

next up I’ll probably be taking a dive into OS/2 Warp, since I thought its OOP capabilities were more of a corporate thing… until I stumbled upon this by mistake https://www.stardock.com/products/od20/
in reply to Xerz~! :blobcathearttrans:

I wonder if I can find any “Dynamic Interface Modules” anywhere at all… if not, the Look and Feel Creation Kit should hopefully help out and is available here https://www.os2site.com/sw/util/objectdesktop/index.html
in reply to Xerz~! :blobcathearttrans:

and uhh

pssst, if you have a full copy of Inside Taligent Technology, pls tell me so :blobcateyes:

glad to confirm my suspicions might be well-founded tho: “All in all, it looks like yet another failure due to C++ introducing unmanageable complexity throughout the system.

https://www.dei.isep.ipp.pt/~alex/OSes.htm
in reply to Xerz~! :blobcathearttrans:

Content warning: whatever, clicking on a link and going back made the text readable, here's a full quote https://www.quora.com/Why-did-Taligent-fail

This entry was edited (1 year ago)
in reply to Xerz~! :blobcathearttrans:

So TalOS was Mach too after all, interesting :blobcateyes:

Also interesting that issues went beyond mere memory management and they actually had created circular dependency hell by design
This entry was edited (1 year ago)
in reply to Xerz~! :blobcathearttrans:

OS/2… tomorrow :blobcatfluffowo:

but before that, here’s something I found out: eComStation has been essentially dead for the last decade, but there’s an alternative now

…that is still oddly expensive

https://www.arcanoae.com/
in reply to Xerz~! :blobcathearttrans:

I wonder how did these two (seemingly different) groups of people manage to get a hold on the OS/2 source code rights and why is it that in both cases it hasn’t resulted on any open sourcing :blobcatsweat:
in reply to Xerz~! :blobcathearttrans:

I also wonder what happened with CommonPoint, since it should have been released for AIX and OS/2 but I can’t find either one atm…
in reply to Xerz~! :blobcathearttrans:

back to this thread after yawning

the very first thing I noticed in the very first page of the very first book
in reply to Xerz~! :blobcathearttrans:

SO THERE WAS A WINDOWS VERSION AND YOU COULD JUST GRAB IT IN A CD LIKE THAT?????????????

WHERE THE HELL IS THE ISO
in reply to Xerz~! :blobcathearttrans:

for context: they were made for the Macintosh II on (likely) the same Cray computer that was bought for the Aquarius RISC project, and were used as its promo material
This entry was edited (1 year ago)
in reply to Xerz~! :blobcathearttrans:

(if CRTs antialiased pixels, analog cameras and ink did that to colors as well :blobcatderpy: )
in reply to Xerz~! :blobcathearttrans:

OK due to Circumstances™®© I will have to do OS/2 another day, but rest assured it will happen :blobcatuwu:
in reply to Xerz~! :blobcathearttrans:

So I just checked back and apparently OS/2 for PPC cannot be emulated on QEMU yet, so it’s gotta be Warp 4 for now :os2:
in reply to Xerz~! :blobcathearttrans:

this is the exact same setup I had for Rhapsody, I expect it to be 1:1 compatible
in reply to Xerz~! :blobcathearttrans:

So basically, you need to have an empty drive, and when you’re on the Logical Volume Management Tool, you should select the CD drive (for whatever reason) and ask it to create a new volume
This entry was edited (1 year ago)
in reply to Xerz~! :blobcathearttrans:

yep, that was pretty straightforward once I figured out the drive thingie ‒ it automatically reboots straight into the GUI installer
in reply to Xerz~! :blobcathearttrans:

NE2000 drivers do not come included with OS/2, odd considering every other popular network card from the time IS listed… but you can just create a floppy image that contains the drivers like this:
mkfs.msdos -C /tmp/OS2NET.img 1440
DRIVE=$(udisksctl loop-setup --file /tmp/OS2NET.img | cut -d' ' -f5 | head -c-2)
udisksctl mount -b "$DRIVE"
MOUNT=$(udisksctl info -b "$DRIVE" | grep MountPoints | cut -d' ' -f13)
curl <a href="http://www.os2site.com/sw/drivers/network/warpnet.zip" rel="ugc">http://www.os2site.com/sw/drivers/network/warpnet.zip</a> | bsdtar -xvf- -C "$MOUNT"
udisksctl unmount -b "$DRIVE"
This entry was edited (1 year ago)
in reply to Xerz~! :blobcathearttrans:

(ngl I wish Udisks had a script-friendly UI, the alternative is calling Dbus from a script and hmmmmmmmph)
in reply to Xerz~! :blobcathearttrans:

Update: tried to change a few things about how I install OS/2:
  • Disabled serial support
  • No networking during system install
  • Display settings left as pure VGA
…it always refuses to boot…?
in reply to Xerz~! :blobcathearttrans:

I edited out the COM line using TEDIT but, if it is a display issue, I have no idea how to address it
in reply to Xerz~! :blobcathearttrans:

o

it’s the sound card…

had to find out using Alt-F2 (if you use GNOME you might have to go to settings to disable the “Show the run command prompt” hotkey)
in reply to Xerz~! :blobcathearttrans:

also extremely quick tutorial on using TEDIT
  • Press Insert and Esc
  • Make whatever changes you please
  • Press F2 followed by F3
in reply to Xerz~! :blobcathearttrans:

did the most barebones, vanilla and default of setups possible

it worked
This entry was edited (1 year ago)
in reply to Xerz~! :blobcathearttrans:

yes it’s real

(also isn’t that Java internationalization class a port of Taligent’s…?)
in reply to Xerz~! :blobcathearttrans:

ok apparently it simply took a while before asking me if I wanted to overwrite a newer version of the Java 1.1 JRE :blobcatderpy:
in reply to Xerz~! :blobcathearttrans:

Hmm, there seem to be no drivers for the Diamond Stealth III, I might have to downgrade it…
in reply to Xerz~! :blobcathearttrans:

Comdex '94 is one of the Comdex of all time https://youtube.com/watch?v=TiPMIDRWKwQ

Interesting to see how much protagonism OS/2 got, particularly for PowerPC, but absolutely no direct or indirect mention of Workplace OS or Taligent as Windows 95 on Intel is already presumed to be the marketshare winner even before release
in reply to Xerz~! :blobcathearttrans:

Worth noting that Computex '94 also featured another Apple spinoff, General Magic, as shown off on the Sony Magic Link – mobility was a thing that year :blobcateyes:

Also they said Windows 95 was not based on DOS lol
in reply to Xerz~! :blobcathearttrans:

(Villa Crespo Software's Go Figure also looks like ideas I'm considering, isn't that a CAS?)
in reply to Xerz~! :blobcathearttrans:

Back to OS/2 :os2: :blobcatreach:

Oddly enough, if you have to change your hardware configuration, you either have to insert back your OS/2 CD or open either “Selective Install” or “Device Driver Install” from the “System Setup” folder

huh
in reply to Xerz~! :blobcathearttrans:

Interesting that I can immediately tell a quality improvement over Windows because of something as simple as relative icon positioning. Text also scales up instead of preserving the original size, which is something Windows cannot even do flawlessly to this day.
in reply to Xerz~! :blobcathearttrans:

I think OS/2 was the only one which did this? X and Motif sure didn’t scale up, neither did Mac OS, GEM, PC/GEOS, AmigaOS Intuition, NeXTSTEP, Java AWT or any Windows toolkit I’m aware of. Maybe TalOS, but I sure cannot check that currently… :blobcatsadreach:
in reply to Xerz~! :blobcathearttrans:

yeahhhhhh I’m pretty sure the Sound Blaster 16 PnP won’t work, so gotta use the og instead
in reply to Xerz~! :blobcathearttrans:

everything is already working except for OpenGL, so I guess if I want either that or OpenDoc I’ll take care of it later

for now tho, the reason I’m playing around with OS/2
in reply to Xerz~! :blobcathearttrans:

At first sight, OS/2 looks pretty boring. Just a Windows 95 copycat. However, there’s subtle things going on which can wrap your head around. For instance, here’s the Hardware Manager (the equivalent of NT’s Device Manager) opened up from both the file manager and the start menu… notice something odd?
in reply to Xerz~! :blobcathearttrans:

In fact, while trying to get there, you might have noticed something on the “OS/2 System” window as well. You would think it’s a “My Computer” equivalent, but it’s not ‒ to start with, the drives are in a subfolder conveniently called “Drives”. But also, you might notice there’s an icon called “WarpCenter” that looks like it’s already open. Double clicking… makes the desktop flash, and that’s it. Right click it or hold Alt while (left) clicking tho, and you have the taskbar settings :blobcateyes:
This entry was edited (1 year ago)
in reply to Xerz~! :blobcathearttrans:

Obviously, what’s going on is obvious: OS/2 treats all these things as OOP objects! Even if at a lower level they’re all PCI devices, HPFS files or some conventional data type on RAM, you can manipulate them as objects and they all work the same way! So, for instance, you could pick up a picture and drag it into your desktop as a shadow :blobcatsurprised:
in reply to Xerz~! :blobcathearttrans:

…wait, I just created a shortcut, right? That’s all I’m getting out of it?

Nope! Notice, for instance, the “Convert to” dialog, which is specific to the filetype. The filetype, btw, is NOT determined by extension nor magic bytes. In fact, you can change it to whatever you feel like, even multiple filetypes at once!!! :blobcatsip:

And I mean, just imagine any other desktop of the time showing a thumbnail in the file manager…
in reply to Xerz~! :blobcathearttrans:

At this point, the OOP nature of the desktop becomes unavoidable and clear: there’s also a “Become” tab… which lets you choose which “Workplace Shell” class it is! It’s literally casting a SOM class!
"Become" tab, showing the file object for GARDEN.BMP is currently an instance of the MMBitmap class, next to the help guide:

"Use the Become tab to change an object's Workplace Shell class."
in reply to Xerz~! :blobcathearttrans:

Oh right, what’s a SOM?

Here’s the explanation IBM gave to devs on their docs:

Despite its promise, penetration of object-oriented technology to major commercial software products has progressed slowly because of certain obstacles.

The first obstacle that developers must confront is the choice of an object-oriented programming language.

The second obstacle […] is that, because different object-oriented languages and toolkits embrace incompatible models of what objects are and how they work, software developed using a particular language or toolkit is naturally limited

The System Object Model (SOM) is IBM’s solution to these problems.
in reply to Xerz~! :blobcathearttrans:

mucho texto, so tl;dr: SOM acted as an universal language for objects to speak with.

So basically, it’s IBM’s COM :blobcatdab:
in reply to Xerz~! :blobcathearttrans:

Think about that tho: SOM means you can create your own objects however you want. Workplace Shell is made of SOM objects.

Could it be :blobcatthinkOwO:
in reply to Xerz~! :blobcathearttrans:

So just to compare, how much can you do on a vanilla OS/2 Warp system if you’re not a developer? Not a whole lot, but you can still get quite far. You might need to learn a thing or two about CONFIG.SYS in the process tho (see https://www.os2world.com/wiki/index.php/OS/2_Warp_4:_New_Workplace_Shell)

Oh, and you can change every single icon in the system (but I don’t feel like it)
in reply to Xerz~! :blobcathearttrans:

Once again, even if it feels underwhelming: out of the box, it is STILL more customizable than any Windows ever has :blobcatdab:
in reply to Xerz~! :blobcathearttrans:

Immediately you can see virtual desktops, system monitors and system theme tweaks. Indeed, Object Desktop can modify the OS theme itself! But let’s keep going, shall we :blobcateyes:
in reply to Xerz~! :blobcathearttrans:

I have to say: this is extremely dense, there’s a lot to go through and it’s pretty late, so I guess I should leave it for next morning :blobcatsleep2:
in reply to Xerz~! :blobcathearttrans:

I do have to say I have already found limitations tho: there’s no obvious way to e.g. create a toolbar shelf with the contents of a directory instead of “hardcoding” them one by one, neither WarpCenter nor Object Desktop’s Control Center allow you to customize what they contain (so no widgets), and color tweaking is awkward :blobcatderpy:
in reply to Xerz~! :blobcathearttrans:

OK, so back to Object Desktop. First things first, what pops up the most, the Control Center. It does kinda look like KDE 1 or NeXT’s dock. You can customize your section choices in the “Sections” tab (iknorite) of the object’s properties, either right clicking on the app file icon or the bar itself (because OS/2 makes that universal for all objects). You can also enable a titlebar on the Options tab and drag it around to snap it at a different border, including the top and bottom edges.

Also, I should look up Object Desktop’s docs, it MIGHT be possible to add custom widgets and I’m just not aware of it.
in reply to Xerz~! :blobcathearttrans:

OK there’s at least one kind of widget you can add: folder objects. Those symlinks now look a bit more useful :blobcateyes:
in reply to Xerz~! :blobcathearttrans:

And in case it wasn’t obvious: you can move around the locations of the original items and the shadows will work just fine. Because it’s objecty and it uses an UID internally!
in reply to Xerz~! :blobcathearttrans:

Oh, you might have noticed. The file manager now looks more… Windowsy, doesn’t it? Yep, that’s because it’s all been replaced by Object Navigator!

It’s definitely a powerful file manager for the time, particularly because it has integrated file preview beyond just thumbnails :blobcateyes: https://www.stardock.com/products/od20/info_od20.html
in reply to Xerz~! :blobcathearttrans:

(why don’t I have that preview yet? because the installer is buggy and it wouldn’t let me get it… yet)
in reply to Xerz~! :blobcathearttrans:

Resizing will NOT leave you with a bootable system. This is expected, because volume information was lost, so you’ll need to run LVM from e.g. the installation CD or recovery floppies http://www.os2voice.org/VNL/past_issues/VNL1100H/vnewsf5.htm
in reply to Xerz~! :blobcathearttrans:

If I were doing this with physical hardware in the 90s I would be having soooooooooo much of a not goodgood time
in reply to Xerz~! :blobcathearttrans:

wow that was easy, just tell it where the network card is (IRQ included) and that I have DHCP
in reply to Xerz~! :blobcathearttrans:

oh right, for web browsing I’m probably going to need a Pentium 4 or something

86box can’t get any better SIMD than MMX…
in reply to Xerz~! :blobcathearttrans:

if this is true, then I want to see it in action :blobcatfluffevil:

(worth noting no mention of Sun, as they opted for OPENSTEP, nor of TalOS, since this came out pretty late in Taligent history) (®)
in reply to Xerz~! :blobcathearttrans:

OK, I want to ask a question to the audience.

Does anyone in the room know what are compound documents or Task Centered Computing™? :blobcateyes:
in reply to Xerz~! :blobcathearttrans:

Since you all seem to not get what I’m getting into, I’m given no other choice

I’ll have to make a shitton of posts about OLE, SOM, OpenDoc, Taligent, compound documents and tasks, later to be condensed into a blogpost

starting tomorrow :blobcatfluffowo:
in reply to Xerz~! :blobcathearttrans:

ok so I’m trying to get things prepared and uhhhhh

I have no idea why but OS/2 app installers keep freezing while opening up
in reply to Xerz~! :blobcathearttrans:

nevermind I think it’s the display driver, I just reset it and they all work now
in reply to Xerz~! :blobcathearttrans:

(I like how the one video in the thread so far is much lighter than the static pictures)
in reply to Xerz~! :blobcathearttrans:

ok fedi what compiler should I use

  • IBM CSET++ (0%, 0 votes)
  • Borland (71%, 5 votes)
  • MetaWare (0%, 0 votes)
  • VisualAge C++ (14%, 1 vote)
  • Watcom enter (14%, 1 vote)
7 voters. Poll end: 1 year ago

in reply to Xerz~! :blobcathearttrans:

ngl I actually think VisualAge C++ is the most fitting here

not only it’s IBM, but uh… reasons :blobcatsip:
in reply to Xerz~! :blobcathearttrans:

oh nvm the part of Object Desktop that failed install was Object Advisor, am: dumbs
in reply to Xerz~! :blobcathearttrans:

(I feel like I should have installed SOM 2 and not SOM 3, because I’m getting crashes from SOMRAS.DLL constantly)
in reply to Xerz~! :blobcathearttrans:

Worth mentioning that I’m doing A LOT of fooling around with OS/2 and it has yet to break (in a way which I didn’t expect) other than the first setup… which is funny considering its reputation for virtualization, but it does show how solid it was for its time :blobcatuwu:

It helps that the CONFIG.SYS file acts as a sort of declaration for all the system components required to get the desktop to work, beat Nix by a couple decades haha yes :blobcatdab:
in reply to Xerz~! :blobcathearttrans:

wow, IBM still hosts Club OpenDoc to this day ftp://service.software.ibm.com/publications/clubod
in reply to Xerz~! :blobcathearttrans:

Don’t worry, I’ll take care of Borland later maybe
This entry was edited (1 year ago)
in reply to Xerz~! :blobcathearttrans:

good job breaking your own software on your own laptops, IBM :blobcatderpy:

(also yup, that confirms OS/2’s S3 implementation is broken)
in reply to Xerz~! :blobcathearttrans:

imagine having a second hard disk because the IDE didn’t fit on your main drive…
in reply to Xerz~! :blobcathearttrans:

I mean, I do have enough space, but I want to include the Open Class source code…
in reply to Xerz~! :blobcathearttrans:

(in the end I’m putting the samples on a new drive still, because I needed 20MB more of space…..)
in reply to Xerz~! :blobcathearttrans:

it wasn’t working but all I needed to do was reboot

…it’s become too late tho x3
in reply to Xerz~! :blobcathearttrans:

ok so smol update: I’m having a bit of an issue with VisualAge and I cannot look it up online, any suggestions?
This entry was edited (1 year ago)
in reply to Xerz~! :blobcathearttrans:

from what I’m reading the issue is most likely to do with either multithreading or SMP… which is not really helping, since the emulated CPU is a Pentium MMX and I have no idea how to fix the former
in reply to Xerz~! :blobcathearttrans:

if it is this then lmao help https://github.com/bitwiseworks/mozilla-os2/issues/247#issuecomment-346265353
in reply to Xerz~! :blobcathearttrans:

update on compiling: increasing RAM and setting VIRTUALADDRESSLIMIT do not work…….
in reply to Xerz~! :blobcathearttrans:

OK, that ZIP worked, the Diamond Stealth 3D 3000 was detected at first try… however it does not support the resolutions the other drivers (generic GRADD and SciTech Display Doctor) do, even after running the DDC Display Setup (located at OS/2’s System Setup folder)… and yet no OpenGL
in reply to Xerz~! :blobcathearttrans:

(I have definitely noticed that at least the SOMobjects and OpenDoc uninstallers do NOT clean up some files nor CONFIG.SYS, so this was definitely needed at the time!)
in reply to Xerz~! :blobcathearttrans:

OK so apparently I just didn’t have OpenGL at all… yet when I do install it, I end up breaking GLUT instead :blobcatthinkingglare:
in reply to Xerz~! :blobcathearttrans:

…o

Hardware acceleration for OpenGL on OS/2 doesn’t really exist right now. IBM has developed it, including drivers for the Omnicomp 3Demon SX88 adapter, but it seems you need a $25,000 OpenGL source license from silicon graphics to get access to it. And no graphics card vendors are currently making drivers for OpenGL on OS/2. Scitech has stated unofficially that they will be bringing hardware accelerated OpenGL to Windows, Linux and OS/2 pretty much simultaneously, but with them focusing on some great new 2D drivers for OS/2, that seems to be quite a ways off yet.

so it never happened?

http://www.os2ezine.com/v4n6/gameprog.htm
in reply to Xerz~! :blobcathearttrans:

(also I could consider the ATI Mach64, since it’s compatible with both OS/2 and Rhapsody as well… it actually might even be the better performer https://vintage3d.org/cards.php)
in reply to Xerz~! :blobcathearttrans:

feeling like reinstalling to make sure I didn’t mess up anything without noticing
in reply to Xerz~! :blobcathearttrans:

gonna keep the S3 ViRGE/VX tho since I don’t expect GPU acceleration in OS/2 anymore and it’s the only one which supports 1600x1200 (the ATI seems to be limited to 1280x1024)
in reply to Xerz~! :blobcathearttrans:

also switching to the Pentium II Overdrive (since I missed it out last time but it’s a Pentium Pro with much better clocks and MMX)
in reply to Xerz~! :blobcathearttrans:

> comparing the Asus P/I-P65UP5, the Gigabyte GA-686NX, the Intel VS440FX and the Micronics M6Mi…
in reply to Xerz~! :blobcathearttrans:

ok the GA-686NX wins, it’s ATX, it supports 512 MB of RAM, plenty of PCI, two PS/2 ports, two USB ports and Award BIOS :blobcatuwu:
in reply to Xerz~! :blobcathearttrans:

Rhapsody DR2: boots :blobcatfakeverified:
OS/2 Warp 4: nope, it *almost* boots but then either 86box crashes or the system reboots :blobcatsadreach:
This entry was edited (1 year ago)
in reply to Xerz~! :blobcathearttrans:

this CPU seems like a buggy one, sad https://github.com/86Box/86Box/issues/1192
in reply to Xerz~! :blobcathearttrans:

o it’s actually the motherboard

Gigabyte… first the Realtek network cards, then the exploding PSUs and now THIS!? :blobcatsadreach:
in reply to Xerz~! :blobcathearttrans:

wow this feels like almost as much of an upgrade as when I did Core 2 Duo E7000 ⇒ Ryzen 5900X :blobcatmelt:💗
in reply to Xerz~! :blobcathearttrans:

Now that I know exactly which config to use and what steps to follow, things worked first try :blobcatfluffowo:

…….except the network card, because I forgot to set the IRQ and then the machine blew up and the partition table was lost????????
in reply to Xerz~! :blobcathearttrans:

OK so here’s my brief guide into computering on 86box
  • Socket 8 machine
    • Intel VS440FX
    • Intel Pentium II Overdrive @ 333 Mhz
    • 192 MB of RAM (max supported ootb by Rhapsody DR2, feel free to raise)
  • HDD with up to 1023 cylinders, 2GB or higher recommended
  • Diamond Stealth 3D 3000 PCI (S3 ViRGE/VX)
  • Creative Sound Blaster 16
  • SLiRP with Novell NE2000 ISA16 network card
  • Standard PS/2 mouse (haven’t played with this yet)
If you want OS/2:
  • Install in order
    • OS/2 Warp 4.52
      • Leave the default graphics driver or pick SciTech Display Doctor
      • Add Sound Blaster 16 manually (configure IRQ correctly!)
      • NE2000 Microsoft driver (configure IRQ correctly!)
      • Enable DHCP, leave DDNS disabled
      • Some software might only reliably work with up to 256 colors
    • Object Desktop 2.0 (see https://www.stardock.com/support_old/os2/od/odbug20/sec1.htm#question2 for errors!)
    • Latest version of WarpIN
this will go into a proper webpage later someday eventually anytime sometime
This entry was edited (1 year ago)
in reply to Xerz~! :blobcathearttrans:

but ye, that should give you full range compatibility between early MS-DOS and Windows XP including virtually everything in between :blobcatrainbow:
in reply to Xerz~! :blobcathearttrans:

If you’re going for a setup like mine with VisualAge C++ 4.0: don’t install the toolkit included with OS/2, just let it do its own thing
in reply to Xerz~! :blobcathearttrans:

Focus on that one last phrase. “we want you to […] develop the most incredible software this industry has ever seen“. Those are major words, even for your usual hype campaign. I wonder why they would use such words for OpenDoc :blobcateyes:
in reply to Xerz~! :blobcathearttrans:

hmm, SOM 2.x expects icc but VisualAge C++ 4.0 comes with iccv4… am I supposed to install both manually?
in reply to Xerz~! :blobcathearttrans:

one last trick for today: you can use Plop Boot Manager to dual boot between two different hard disk drives and partitions no matter the OS! :blobcatchristmasglowsticks:
in reply to Xerz~! :blobcathearttrans:

OK so am back to: stuffs

apparently I should be using make2cfg to convert icc makefiles for iccv4… but there’s no such command on the VisualAge C++ command line :blobcatsadreach:
in reply to Xerz~! :blobcathearttrans:

……o wait

why did I open the default command line instead of the VisualAge one…..
in reply to Xerz~! :blobcathearttrans:

oh if you’re wondering what happened to this

yeah more :os2: is coming I just got a few things going on

one of them is trying to permanently install Plop
in reply to Xerz~! :blobcathearttrans:

also, just to show how capable my 86box setup is: it can actually boot into SliTaz Linux! Not a lot of RAM left tho :blobcatsweat:
This entry was edited (1 year ago)
in reply to Xerz~! :blobcathearttrans:

also, apparently the AMD K6-2+ also works and might be faster than the Pentium II Overdrive, will have to dig further tomorrrow
in reply to Xerz~! :blobcathearttrans:

ok heya back :blobcatpeekaboo:

so far: just realized the K6-2+ can be upgraded to 550MHz aaaaaaaand… seems to behave just as fast as lower frequencies? also sound stutters? Weird :blobcatthinkingglare:

the K6-III+ ALSO works at 500MHz under certain motherboards… and yup, this one is DEFINITELY faster… except compile times remain the exact same so it’s not. Maybe I/O bottleneck?

I should have used some actual benchmarks, but I’m pretty sure a 500MHz K6-III+ should be faster than a Pentium II Overdrive at 333MHz, so I’m keeping it even if not recommending it due to the stutter (even if it only affects startup and shutdown for me)
This entry was edited (1 year ago)
in reply to Xerz~! :blobcathearttrans:

(if only 86box supported a CPU with SSE(2), then it would be able to do about anything modern… 3DNow is not really used anywhere afaik)
in reply to Xerz~! :blobcathearttrans:

ok so I’m back at :os2: ing with a completely clean install where I have both VisualAge C++ 4.0 and 3.0, as shown here

…can this even be considered an IDE
in reply to Xerz~! :blobcathearttrans:

right, VisualAge 3 comes with its own version of SOM and breaks the setup I already had

greaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat
in reply to Xerz~! :blobcathearttrans:

I can see why people tend to prefer VisualAge 3: the output of the project is not one, but TWO folders. Except one of them is a project object, which believe it or not, IS a kind of folder object, no different from any other in OS/2.
in reply to Xerz~! :blobcathearttrans:

The most IDE part about VisualAge C++ 3.0 is the editor, which is made to look like a typewriter.
in reply to Xerz~! :blobcathearttrans:

you can then proceed to build and run from the project object

(sorry for the black scrollbars, that’s a driver bug when using the highest resolution)
in reply to Xerz~! :blobcathearttrans:

the project compiled fine btw, you just need to tell it where the DLLs with the SOM objects are

you can tell this was made by an RPG fan
This entry was edited (1 year ago)
in reply to Xerz~! :blobcathearttrans:

And here’s the fanciest part about this: everything in OS/2 is so objecty that everything has… templates! That’s right, you can even create the templates using templates for extra templating, and it’s all as native and consistent as it gets!!! :blobcatdab:
in reply to Xerz~! :blobcathearttrans:

Think about this for a second.

Everything works in the exact same way. Everything is objects, created with templates, and with a properties panel. Every object can talk to each other through SOM. Objects talking to each other lets you extend objects themselves, adding functionality. Apps are objects made of objects too, so everything about this applies.

You see where I’m going?
in reply to Xerz~! :blobcathearttrans:

There’s one point at which you realize, why shouldn’t all documents work like this? Standardize it all so you can have documents made of objects that can do anything, on an app that is made of objects that can be extended at will.

That’s OpenDoc.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2FSFvEIpm5o
in reply to Xerz~! :blobcathearttrans:

This is something I already talked about… on the Apple side of things. If you have a good eye, you’ll spot SOM around there :blobcateyes: https://fedi.xerz.one/notice/A5s6APMK9A5Ab2a5AW
This entry was edited (1 year ago)
in reply to Xerz~! :blobcathearttrans:

Anyway, this is ultimately what IBM and Apple aspired to do: after Microsoft betrayed IBM by stealing VMS and making their own kernel, IBM immediately called Apple and Motorola to join forces. The idea was that they could make their own standards that made all computers work the same transparently, and Apple and IBM would be on top of it all, hoping wide support and competition would make Microsoft and Intel’s efforts fail.

IBM would provide OS/2, SOM and POWER. Apple would provide Taligent and OpenDoc. Motorola would act as a fab for IBM. And they would all work towards a PC standard, CHRP.

No more worrying about CPU architectures. No more worrying about OSes. No more worrying about apps. The AIM alliance would do it all, and make it all work together for everyone.
in reply to Xerz~! :blobcathearttrans:

So for instance, just take this article’s intro to see how important OpenDoc was.

‘And God went to say: “it is not good for the man to continue in a sea of Windows. I am going to create OpenDOC for him…’

https://www.os2world.com/wiki/index.php/OpenDOC,_a_Forgotten_Technology
in reply to Xerz~! :blobcathearttrans:

OpenDoc’s role in all of this is to let you create documents, put literally any “parts” on it (they can be interactive too), and use it at will customizing your editor of choice, called a “container”… which you didn’t even have to pay for, as IBM had the IBM BaseContainer, Apple had CyberDog, and there also was the standard ODFContainer. And if your container supported it, you could even have multiple people using the same OpenDoc at once, acting as online collaborative editing :blobcatsip:
in reply to Xerz~! :blobcathearttrans:

So basically, OpenDoc documents acted as apps themselves, and you would never, ever need an app again.

Something something I was foreshadowing https://fedi.xerz.one/notice/APDsfsAg2FfoPfX2dU
in reply to Xerz~! :blobcathearttrans:

I don’t know at which point Apple and IBM agreed the future of computers implied killing off the need for buying apps and managing them. But they apparently did.

Just imagine if this had worked out :blobcatuwu:
in reply to Xerz~! :blobcathearttrans:

Things get weirder, however, when talking Taligent and OS/2. IBM was somehow promising both were the future, and this made no sense.

Taligent aspired to be a fully-fledged OS to rule them all, based on a microkernel that would run other OSes inside, that just happened to ship with its own fully OOP frameworks with support for SOM and OpenDoc… but IBM already had OS/2, and as I mentioned above (https://fedi.xerz.one/notice/AOwQD1MagCbG7WEvWi), they wanted to upgrade it with the Workplace OS microkernel. Both TalOS and Workplace OS were based on Mach. It was clear IBM was not really interested in Taligent as a product, and wanted to push the stuff they already had instead.

Meanwhile, Apple seemed to want to ship TalOS as the successor to Mac OS at first, but after Taligent got delayed as Apple left it on its own, they eventually announced Copland as the new Mac OS 8, which would still support Taligent apps. That went well :blobcatderpy:
This entry was edited (1 year ago)
in reply to Xerz~! :blobcathearttrans:

Here’s about the only image we have of Taligent’s operating system. It does look like a mix of MacOS, OS/2, and also looks suspiciously similar to BeOS. No apps to be seen, btw: it was all about People, Places and Things™, with inboxes that were actual folders, printers that behaved just like any other object, and with templates being called “stationeries”.
This entry was edited (1 year ago)
in reply to Xerz~! :blobcathearttrans:

This entry was edited (1 year ago)
in reply to Xerz~! :blobcathearttrans:

A whole decade of tech had been wasted. It essentially went nowhere, not just within Taligent, IBM and Apple, but everywhere you looked at. The people involved with it were all pretty frustrated. Eventually they had to move on, but they all clearly loved what they worked on.

https://old.hotchips.org/wp-content/uploads/hc_archives/hc15/2_Mon/Disasters.pdf https://web.archive.org/web/19981205185028/http://www.best.com/%7Ezaveri/talumni/
in reply to Xerz~! :blobcathearttrans:

If it helps, a liiiiiiiiiiitle bit of Taligent DID survive. They managed to ship the following:
in reply to Xerz~! :blobcathearttrans:

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